Nancy, the concept of carrying fire around and the concept of creating burnable charcole-wood to make it easy to start a next fire from a previous fire - needs to be seporated out in the following post. Carry Embers http://www.zetatalk.com/info/tinfo20y.htm One could be called "creating fire starting materals" or "fire starting materals" or possably it goes under your "starting a fire" the other "carry embers" as you have it. "Carry Embers" would then be changed to be the following: The movie "In search of Fire" Illustrated a method of caring fire from one place to another. I think with some trial an error one could make something that might work, made out of a paint bucket. The trick would be to allow in just enough air to keep it burning but not so much as to consume all the dry wood you carry. A small slot near the bottom and top that can be bent open or closed to adjust the air flow may work. The technology of taking a glowing ember and making a fire out of it will need to be relearned well by all. You may need to carry a set of light weight but long tongs or a way of handling or lifting and moving logs while burning. This could also be used to help adjust the fire to keep it going. Offered by Mike. If the amount of material is enough I think this concept would work and an extra gallon paint can full of these burning embers wouldn't be heavy, as the water in the wood would have already boiled away. I've never had a problem lifting burning embers, and do this by just using a stick. If an actual "holding" capability is required, one can use a stick in each hand or even make tongs by loosely tying the "hand" end of two sticks together. This is how "cooking rocks" are moved to and from a fire. Offered by Ron. ------------------------------------------------------ For "Fire Starting Materals" or whatever this turns out be - you could use: The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may not be all that dry but the wood and charcoal that was in the fire should be easier to start burning again. This very dry wood and charcoal then can be carried to the next encampment and used to make it much easier to start the next fire. Put small burning pieces and hot coals into a 1 to 5 gallon steel paint can and close the lid. Any other steel container would also work. The fire will go out almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed. No oxygen to feed the fire. Carry this to the next encampment to help start the next fire. If the lid is completely air tight, the tin can could collapse when the hot gases cool. A small hole punched on the side near the top will keep a vacuum from forming. The can could have charcoal dust, sand or a bit of dry dirt in the bottom to help keep the metal from getting too hot. Offered by Mike. I think that if you can fill your two empty paint cans which are part of the portable water still with the appropriate material from the fire that this would be all that is necessary to get the next one going. In fact, in two of the survival field trips I attended, I was able to start a fire using the "bow drill" technique with ONLY charcoal powder for "starting tender". Offered by Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------ Source data posts follow ----------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Re: [tt-forum] Re: Pre/Post PS On Foot and the Backpack Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:25:00 -0700 From: Ron Darby wrote: > The main problem I see with starting and maintaining a fire in the aftertime > is the soaked muddy ground. A solution could be to carry a metal garbage > can lid and the fire built on it when inverted. I believe the so called dry wood laying around on the ground in the continuous rain, will most probably be soaked completely through to the center, after say the first week to month or so. I have been thinking to use the current fire to dry wood for the next fire by piling it around the fire you built. In general keeping it close but not close enough to burn. This would help the spiting and sputtering of the fire by keeping it contained. This dry wood would then be carried to the next encampment to help start the next fire. The rule would be don't burn all your dry wood at one place and time. I think wood chopped into slivers will dry faster than a log with the bark still protecting it. To put out the current fire. Put small burning pieces and hot coals into a 1 to 5 gallon steel paint can and close the lid. An old wide mouth gas can would work if completely aired out of all gasoline. A surplus steel ammo or ammunition can would be a bit heavy to carry but would be excellent. With no air the fire will soon suffocate. If the lid is air tight, the can could collapse when the hot gases cool. A small hole punched on the side near the top will keep a vacuum from forming. If you punch the hole in the top led, water could collect from rain and run into it. Most tops are recessed and will collect water if the can is setting upright. The can could have charcoal dust, sand or a bit of dry dirt in the bottom to help keep the metal from getting too hot and warping. This hot can could be given to the coldest member of the bucket so as to help keep them warm until it cools off. If a log is too long to fit the can, chop the burning end off, and place it in the can, carry the rest of the log if it has dried. You may need to carry a set of light weight but long tongs or a way of handling or lifting and moving logs while burning. This would be used to help adjust the fire to keep it going and to put out the fire as described above. Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:52:24 -0700 From: > If all one needs to do is put out the current fire, just overturn the metal > base so the remains are laying in the mud and use your entrinching tool to > cover what's left with mud. I see no reason at all to carry the burning > embers till they die. One may wish to carry burning embers with which to > start the next fire, though. I see I failed to communicate a key concept. The fire will go out almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed. No oxygen to feed the fire. This extra dry wood and charcoal then can be carried to the next encampment and used to make it much easier to start the next fire. The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may not be all that dry but this wood and charcoal that was close to the fire should be easier to start burning again. Remember we have no dry leaves or news paper to help start the next fire. Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:37:22 -0500 From: "Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > I see I failed to communicate a key concept. The fire will go out > almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed. No > oxygen to feed the fire. This extra dry wood and charcoal then can be > carried to the next encampment and used to make it much easier to start > the next fire. The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may > not be all that dry but this wood and charcoal that was close to the > fire should be easier to start burning again. Remember we have no dry > leaves or news paper to help start the next fire. Yes, I did miss your point, which is an excellent one. I think that if you can fill your two empty paint cans which are part of the portable water still with the appropriate material from the fire that this would be all that is necessary to get the next one going. In fact, in two of the survival field trips I attended, I was able to start a fire using the "bow drill" technique with ONLY charcole powder for "starting tender". This is also a good reason to carry some amount of cotton material in your pack inside a zip lock bag. Charred cotton is the very best "starting tender" I've ever used or heard about. On many occasions I've been able to start a fire using a small piece of charred cotton cloth as the "starting tender" with a single spark. > You brought up an interesting concept during this conversation. The > possibility of carrying your fire with you. The movie "In search of > Fire" Illustrated a method of caring fire from one place to another. I > think with some trial an error one could make something that might work, > made out of a paint bucket. The trick would be to allow in just enough > air to keep it burning but not so much as to consume all the dry wood > you carry. A small slot near the bottom and top that can be bent open > or closed to adjust the air flow may work. The technology of taking a > glowing ember and making a fire out of it will need to be relearned well > by all. If the amount of material is enough I think this concepe would work and an extra gallon paint can full of this burning ember wouldn't be heavy, as the water in the wood would have already boiled away. > > Remember any fire whether carried or at night to warm and cook with > could dangerously attract unwanted visitors in the vicinity. These > things can be seen for long distances. One ultimately needs to balance > the dangers of exposure against the need of a fire. I agree and made a point of conceling your campsight in my initial post. The other thing is smoke, but in the aftertime with almost constant rain, the rain will keep the smoke from going very far from your campsight. One thing that I've been meaning to mention is that one should carry a water filter capable of removing harmful biological organisms, or use a chemical such as iodine to kill them for use in an emergency (where you need water but are too exposed to distill with a campfire). The filter won't remove the lead, but if lead containing water is consumed only very infrequently, it is safe to drink. It is the long term buildup of lead in the system that is ultimately fatal. I think we are going to get some lead anyway when eating insects and small animals a while after the PS, as they will have some lead in them. Ron